Laws of the land and Natural law

[subhash]

MK,

You are again unnecessarily misconstruing the messages and twisting the facts. What makes you think and write, what you have written? Hope you have read the replies.

What would you recommend to do when you are carrying a serious patient - would you treat your vehicle like an ambulance or not?
What would you recommend doing as a spy caught by foreign country - tell the truth and confess that you are a spy or tell a lie?
What would you recommend to do as a foreign minister - divulge the secrets of your own country telling the truth or hide it in the larger interest?

APATDHARMA is not a rule. Do not know what you get by misinterpreting the replies?

God bless you,
Subhash

[mk]

Namonamah,
Subhashjee Namaste,

I am afraid you have misread the tone of my post.

Besides, my post is not even a reply to your post, but a continuation of the earlier effort to identify divergences between JV laws and laws of the land. Unfortunately, this forum does not allow me to specifically reply to a post, but to the topic as a whole. Of course I could have indicated what my post was in continuation of, which I did not, and which was my mistake.

What made me write what I did? I thought it would highlight the importance of "Wisdom" (which Meenajee had pointed out in an earlier post) in deciding what is aapatdharm.

Suppose I am building an old age home for public good out of my own funds. I have fulfilled all criteria and followed all rules and yet I am being harassed for bribes. If I don't pay, I might need to spend a lot of energy (which I could spend more fruitfully on the project itself) and lose a lot of motivation (so necessary to sustain such projects) t besides delaying the project. Paying a bribe would solve the problem (since my paperwork is in order and since I am following all other rules) and expedite things.
Would JV condemn such bribe giving?

Even in personal matters, one often has to pay bribes. If one does not, he/she faces lot of frustration, humiliation and losses in money, commitment, business and time. Does JV allow it? Does JV give one the strength to fight it?

Sometimes, one is spared the above humiliation because of well wishers or because on the other side is someone whom you have helped in some form earlier. Is this different from paying a bribe?

Is appointing someone to get the thing done (probably by paying the bribe, you preferring not to know) any different?

Is it justifiable to not do business because business involves (as per public perception) giving bribes?
Is it OK to be in employment where you personally don't have to be involved in such dealings (but your emplyer would have to do it anyway, as part of business?

Will chanting VP enable me to be nivaant in the face of such issues?

Thanks and Regards
Milind Khadilkar

[subhash]

MK,

Giving bribe is not at all in line with JV philosophy.

Our experience is that if you are doing something which is helping a better cause even bitter people help going out of the way. JV recommends approaching the people and telling them the truth about what you are up to and request them to expedite your work and they will generally do help you a lot. So many times we have faced this during the grantha-dindi or setting up our offices or doing programs in various places.

Good behaviour is infectious and it multiplies and magnifies. But sometimes you do have to undertake other ways.

I was in Chikhaldara on holidays and went for a forest tour in the later afternoon. So many people were waiting but no sign of any govt vehicle. We all were waiting. I could not bear it no more. Went ahead and scolded the officer and asked him to get the vehicle. He said today no vehicles. So many people were nervous. Told him that I know few IAS officers and would 'inform' them about this. He asked me my name and I gave it to him. 20 mins later there were three govt. vehicles with drivers!!

Few years ago a telephone guy came to 'transfer' my line from earlier address to new address (within same telephone exchange without number change). He demanded a bribe indirectly and said that things would happen in a day if he gets 'chaipaani'. I gave him Satguru's book for free and said bye bye. Waited for 6 more days and visited the Public Relations officer of BSNL. Requested the guy that I have been tolerant and very patient and am ready to put up a complaint in writing and was not at all expecting this type of service. Also talked about my conversation with the telephone lineman. It was 1 PM when I met him. My phone started the same day at 3 PM.

Of course, again there is no one solution for everything and we cannot generalize the technique. It is situation-dependent. But wisdom lies in doing the right things.

When Satguru went to Borivali, there was no water supply in that area. Neighbourhood residents were tolerating it for a long time. Satgurujee went to the municipal corporation office one day in person and requested the officers to solve the problem. It got resolved for the entire society.

Satguru in his guidance to KARYAKATAS is very particular in making a statement that we should not break any laws. While we do Grantha Dindi he insists on not carrying more passengers than what is allowed in the bus or jeep (one could have argued that we are doing good to society and hence few more people is ok too). Satguru is strictly against bending the rules. He says that even if the KARYA is short of your expectations it is fine but no exceptions to abiding by rules.

God bless you, God bless all.
Subhash

[mk]

Namonamah,
Thanks, Subhashjee.

It was heartening to read your reply. But it would be more heartening if in the examples you cited:
1. The attitude of the officers at Chikhaldara changed for ever, nay, spread to other officers within the department ( and eventually to the whole bureaucracy)
2. The telephone department stopped harassing its customers. (Here I must say that over the past 10 years or so, due to competition, the situation has improved a lot!)

On the other hand, if the positive results you got were out of personal influence, it could have (by the law of averages) made things worse for public in general:
1. The jeeps could have really been engaged in some emergency medical activity and could have been diverted for tourist use under "threat" of action. (Just mentioning a possibility: I don't really believe what I have written here! I am fairly sure that you only deprived the staff of an afternoon siesta!)
2. The telephone staff could have made up for this "loss of income" through harassment of those who were more vulnerable.


It could thus be argued that your actions might not have been for "general good", as befits the spirit of VP. I am sure JV would have a more potent remedy for this, waiting to be discovered.

Thanks again, and regards.

Milind Khadilkar

[subhash]

MK,

remedy for changing people is imparting knowledge. Tried to do that by doing Granthadindi in Chikhaldara. Hope it helped one family at least.

Quote
The jeeps could have really been engaged in some emergency medical activity
Unquote

Good question. But JV takes a balanced approach.

Aspect 1: We pay taxes and Govt. has built hospitals for all of us for this as also emergency medical services. Forest officer and whole of the system out there is also part of this tax money with a purpose to serve the tourists. So many people earn money in that region with the tourists. It is for larger good. Salaries of those drivers come out of our money.

Aspect 2: Why Jeep? The same argument can be done for higher causes all along. Why should I do my office work? There are many better things to do in life which are in even larger interests? But JV guides us on the balanced view. By doing work which helps society and using my skills and capabilities even if I do delta it is in line with the laws of nature and hence it benefits self, my family and society. Think of me working 24X7 and I will not be able to work after some time since it is against the law of nature.

Aspect 3: JV recommends doing good things and at least avoiding doing bad things. So delta good is ok too and is in line with VP. Best is to do the work sincerely, honestly and bless all. JV's guideline is Do good to others as much you can (SWATAHACHE NUKSAAN HOU NA DETA, YATHASHAKTI ITARANNA SUKHI KARANYACHA PRAYATNA KARANE).

God bless you, God bless all,
Subhash

[mk]

Namonamah,
I refer to my post in another thread: Please look up http://www.jeevanvidya.org/forum/index.php/topic,329.msg2463.html#msg2463.

Can we say that laws of the land are open to human interpretation and judgment and human response, while THE LAW of nature is (or laws of nature, if you prefer, are) open only to himan interpretation and not to human judgment and certainly not to human response?

Thanks and regards
Milind Khadilkar

[subhash]

MK,

laws of land are left for interpretation - may be a few where ambiguities exist. Does not apply to all laws of land - some are very explicit.

Laws of nature also can be interpreted differently but then you are fooling yourself because nature interprets it in only one way.

To understand these laws of nature and tune the laws of land according to the laws of nature is an important thing. e.g. Living relationship is not mentioned in the laws of nature but common sense can conclude that it is not good for society at large. So the law of land should be tuned to make the VYAVASTHA in society. LARGER INTERESTS FIRST should be the motto.

God bless you, God Bless all.
Subhash