Wrong thoughts

[mk]

Namonamah,

According to JV,

1. can we reject wrong thoughts outright before they enter our minds? or is it that through saadhanaa we condition our minds so, that wrong thoughts get (through involuntary action) automatically shunted out?
2. what is better: not allowing wrong thoughts to enter our mind, or to let them enter, counter them, and conquer them?
3. is a wrong thought always and everywhere a wrong thought?

Thanks in advance for any guidance

Regards,
Milind Khadilkar

[subhash]

MK,

Let's define wrong thoughts for our discussions as any thoughts that are not in tune with the laws of nature. This would mean they will invite harmful thoughts from thought ocean, invite such people who generate these thoughts habitually and would invite unwanted circumstances - according to the laws of nature.

Q1. Reject before it enters our mind or condition our mind through sadhana -
Chintan - Training and taming your subconscious mind to continuously think blissfully and harmoniously is the objective of Sadhana and hence the probability of wrong thoughts emerging in such conditioned mind should be significantly low. However, your subconscious mind is as much influenced by your conscious mind. Thoughts in conscious mind are mostly due to SANGAT or COMPANY in the form of circumstances, books/tv/radio/media/people and thought ocean that surrounds us. If you keep on ensuring that conscious mind will entertain or contremplates on only good thoughts using the reasoning power and determination we should be able to hold good thoughts against possibility of wrong thoughts. Thus we can do both things you have asked in your Q.

Q2: Not allow or conquer.
Chintan - Prevention is better obviously but if they do come no way out but to conquer them.

Q3:Did not get the question - please elaborate after agreeing to the meaning of wrong thought.

God bless all,
Subhash

[mk]

Namonamah,
Thanks, Subhashjee, and wish you a very happy Diwali and a prosperous new year!!

First, about Q3: I agree with the definition. So, Q3 is void.

About conquering etc.:
I was thinking whether a parallel to vaccination can be thought here. Once conquered, it is remembered, and thereafter proves to be a barrier.

I feel before achieving discerning abilities through saadhanaa and in the absence of external guidance, we would be going through the process of experiencing and (hopefully) conquering and rejecting vaeious thoughts. I don't mean to suggest, of course, that worse the sangat, better the immunity!

Regards,
Milind Khadilkar

[subhash]

MK,

if only we would have had Thought White Blood Cells ! Vaccination would have worked then...

Our SWAROOP is NIRGUN. That means we have an ability - at least theorotically - to become anything and everything. There is no guarantee that a conditioned mind cannot be conditioned other way round except when you are a realized soul. Hence the best strategy is harmoniously conditioned subconscious mind through Vishwaprarthana and good KRIYAMANA and based on our ability to control our conscious mind through the power of reasoning and based on wisdom constant contemplation on good thoughts and being in the right company.

Of course the ultimate is to do DIVYASADHANA and be realized soul in this very birth.

God bless you, God bless all,
Subhash

[dr.nutanpol]

Namaskar MK jee,

It is very difficult to control mind without the help of Shri. Satguru. It is not easy and practically impossible to control mind without doing any sadhana.
 Though Samarth Ramdas swami was doing namsmaran for many years, he said, "achapal man maze na avare avarita  tujvin shin hoto raghu nayaka dhav re dhav aata."
   
 It is possible to stay in positive thoughts only for a while without doing any sadhana and we do not come to know how mind goes out of our sight and gets engaged in thoughts of worry, anxiety and thoughts of other routine things. Therefore it is essential to start sadhana under the guidance of real Satguru as early as possible if we really wish to progress spiritually!

May everybody enjoy VP chanting!
 

[mk]

Namonamah,
Thank You, Subhashjee, Dr. Nutanjee.

I really feel we humans (maybe even animals) do have "thought" white blood cells! But I am sure it would be dangerous to try vaccination without wisdom, without theoretical basis and withiout conviction. But once someone has mastered JV, won't it be his/her duty to be a volunteer for vaccinating himself or herself with wrong thoughts in the larger interests of society?

A sideline anecdote:
George Washington is credited with saying "I cannot tell a lie" in the famous story of his childhood when he cut down his father's favourite tree with an axe. Mark Twain's comment on it: "I have a higher and grander standard of principle than George Washington. He could not lie; I can, but I won't."

Can we analogously say "I can escape from wrong thoughts, but I won't. I will confront them and conquer them".

If no one does this vish-praashan, won't vivek disappear from society?



Coincidence:
Just when I started writing this post, the radio programme on Asmita channel commenced, and guess what it started with:
(In the analogy of a fan) When Naamache chakra is active, it won't let wrong things come near the saadhak's mind!

Thanks and regards
Milind Khadilkar

[subhash]

MK,

Conceptually agreed. I am realizing that when I start doing SADHANA I am determined to not have any other thought than experiencing God but it takes me a while to realize that I have again come back on MI-PAN !! I would not want to take a bet on your idea (VISHACHI PARIKSHA) until I am a realized soul. I would rather continue doing blissful thinking (which is Vishwaprarthana) and inculcate that as a habit and make myself ready for SADHANA.

God bless you, God bless all,
Subhash

[Vaibhav Nimbalkar]

Plz let's be pragmatic enough to know/accept that it's easier to elude negative thoughts than to conquer/fight them!
In a way, Mark wain is Mark Twain, I'm what I'm!
Prevention is far better, at least for me, than curing afterwards!

Regarding disappearance of 'vivek' from society, two of my friends named 'Vivek' won't disappear 4 sure!
(as logical an answer as ur question! bcoz 'vish-praashan does NOT make any sense as this 'vish' is endless!)
So, let's be practical guys!

[mk]

Namonamah,
Dear Vaibhavjee,
I am extremely glad to see you back on the forum.
I am also glad that new members like Vishaljee, Bhushanjee, Manasijee have also been contributing to the forum.

Thanks for your answer.
I somehow felt that JV would give saadhaks the courage and strength to overcome the cushy pragmatism (read escapism). But maybe I am mistaken.

And with respect to ...
QUOTE
Regarding disappearance of 'vivek' from society, two of my friends named 'Vivek' won't disappear 4 sure! Grin
UNQUOTE

...I thought JV stresses the difference between a name and the object it names.
But again, I am likely to be mistaken! 

But yes, please continue contributing to the forum with your usual enthusiasm!!

Thanks and Best wishes

MIlind Khadilkar

[Vaibhav Nimbalkar]

Ooooops... plz don't take it to heart!
I was just kidding as the topic was getting a bit complex!
'm sorry if u r hurt in any sense!

Btw, thanx a bunch 4 appreciatin' my enthusiasm!
'm obliged!!!

[dr.nutanpol]

 Namaskar to MK jee and all,

You said that JV followers follow the path of escapism. Satguru says that, the person who learns from other person's mistake/s is wise, one who learns from his/her own mistakes is semiwise while the one who does not wish to learn from anybody's mistakes is fool or dumb.

JV followers believe in this thinking, hence it may appear that they are following the path of escapism.

 May everybody chant VP!   

[mk]

Namonamah,
Thanks, Dr. Nutanjee, Vaibhavjee for your response.

I suppose, JV does not say that one should hope that other people commit mistakes, so that we can learn! I really feel JV would want us to take the lead and set examples to the extent we can. After all, infinite (Vaibhavjee's estimate!)vishpraashan in the interest of others should lead to infinite punnya, and transform Jeev to Shiv!

With all respect, I do not agree with "the person who learns from other person's mistake/s is wise, one who learns from his/her own mistakes is semiwise while the one who does not wish to learn from anybody's mistakes is fool or dumb.".

1. Why just mistakes? We should learn from other peoples' non-mistakes too!
2. Why should my dependence on my anubhav be less important than my dependence on somebody else's anubhav? I can only perceive the result, if at all, of others' actions. Of my actions, I can perceive not only the outward result but also inner results like satisfaction, grief, ecstasy etc. Besides I can also observe intermediate fleeting results and also get a feel fro the process.  As Vaibhavjee points out, Mark Twain is Mark Twain, and he is he.
3. One who does not wisg to learn from anyone's actions is as likely to be a person after divine knowledge, waiting like Nachiketa to get the answer from Yama himself, or a bodhisattva, or a fool. But maybe they are one and the same. As Kabir says: Jyon main baonraa taon Raam taonraa. Log Maram kyaa jaane mora.

Thanks and regards
Milind Khadilkar

Thanks and regards.

[Vaibhav Nimbalkar]

Namaskar Milindjee,

Regarding your 2nd argument...
Life's too short to learn everything by self-experience! We can not go back to Mark Twain's times and so can not experience the prevailing knowledge directly either! I guess, that's why we read books, lectures, etc.! (Here, I'd like to take the opportunity to appreciate your voracious reading! Hats off! )

Reagarding the 3rd one...
Even those (many of them) saints who did not get Shri Satguru's guidance, emphasised upon the need for 'guru(s)' themselves, later on! (e.g. Saint Tukaram, Kabir, etc.)
In short, Satguru-vina aatmadnyan hone ha apawad, tar Satgurunmule te hone ha niyam!
(Can be generalised to some other fields of knowledge too!)

[mk]

Namonamah,
Vaibhavjee Thanks.
2. Accepted. But wherever my experience competes with someone other's (even Pai Mahaaraaj's) experiences about some specific thing, I will value my experience over the other's.
3. Aapan apavaad hone (yaa baabteet) he kevhaa hi shreyaskar!
I shall be telling this with a sigh   
Somewhere ages and ages hence:   
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?   
I took the one less traveled by,   
And that has made all the difference.
  The Road Not Taken, by Robert Frost


I suppose you accept my arg. no. 1

By the way, I read very little. And therefore I remember a large part of it. Thothaa chanaa baaje ghanaa.

Thanks and Best wishes
Milind Khadilkar

[Vaibhav Nimbalkar]

Dear MK,

first of all, sorry 4 late reply! I'd try to lessen the delays!

Arg.1: Accepted! Any source of learning is advisable!

Arg.2 (as modified by you): This is too subjective to falsify! One can cite diametrically opposite examples supporting both sides! (You really play smart! )
BUT, I surely disagree with the comment of yours which meant- when Satgurujee's experience/knowledge clashes with ours, we'd follow ours!
I personally do not consider myself (or any other human being on this planet; I mean it!) wiser than Shri Satguru! hence, no question of leading my life on some of my egotistically ignorant conceptions/experiences coming in contrast with Shri Satguru's!

Arg.3 (earlier): You have equated Nachiketa, Bodhisattva with a fool!
 I really hope, you follow/mean what your status msg says- "या लिखांणात व्यक्त झालेल्या मतांशी लेखक सहमत असेलच असे नाही."

Arg.3 (modified): If one thinks him/herself in the category of Sant Kabir, Sant Tukaram, Ramakrishna Paramhansa or Raman Maharshi,etc. then he/she 'may think of taking such risk' of choosing a tremendously (or unreasonably?!!) difficult path!
But the rule of thumb as preached by Geeta is-  "मनुष्याणां सहस्रेषु...." means even with guidance of Satguru, it's difficult!
This makes the so-called less travelled path foggy and unreliable! So choice is yours...
After all, 'You are the architect of your destiny!'




या लिखांणात व्यक्त झालेल्या मतांशी लेखक सहमत आहेच आहे!
(No offence meant!)