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Author Topic: Law of nature - gets interesting in case of Jeeva  (Read 2729 times)
subhash
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« on: November 22, 2008, 10:01:29 AM »

Hello,

Want to share one question that came up during the advanced course. Pralhad-dada had already asked this question to Satguru and hence we were fortunate to get the answer immediately. Give it a try yourself.

Question - Everywhere life force is in the form of JEEVA. All human being are born as JEEVA by birth. Does not it mean that this is the law of nature then? Why should we go against this law of nature and try to become SHIVA?

What is the problem in this logic?

God bless all,
Subhash
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God bless you, God bless all.
mk
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 11:16:18 AM »

Namonamah,
Pardon my ignorance and my responding in spite of it.

I think at innocence of birth we all are not just Jeeva but also Shiva. As we proceed to live our life, we let our Jeeva dominate our Shiva, as part of our life struggles and consequent accumulation of paap and consumption of punya. Thus it would not be against nature to try and assert our Shiva-ness.

Thanks and regards
Milind Khadilkar
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dr.nutanpol
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 12:44:48 PM »

Namaskar Subhash dada, MK jee and all,

All human beings are borne as Jeeva by birth. But we cannot say that, it is the law of nature to remain in a state of Jeeva and trying to attain a state of Shiva is against the law of nature.

Jeev has all the right to be in a state of own swaroop-a state of Shiva. It is not against the law of nature to try to achieve that state and remain in it. Because that is a state where Jeev belongs to and deserves to be and has all the rights as per the law of nature to remain in that state. It is because of descending from the state of Shiva that man-Jeeva has lost his all powers, peace, bliss and glory. Act of attaining a state of Shiva is not against the law of nature and this act is very much in harmony with the law of nature. To achieve this state we have to do Satguru seva by Tan-man-dhan. We should donate money for Satguru kary and do physical-mental seva of Shri Satguru- Satguru tatva in whichever way it is possible for us. 

Satguru blesses all through VP!

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Sarve Sukhinha santu! Sarve bhadrani pashyantu!
May Divinity Within All get bloomed!
May God Bless all!
Vaibhav Nimbalkar
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Viththal Viththal...


« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2008, 10:06:36 PM »

I guess,
Being in 'Jeev' roop leads to violation of many laws of nature (which itself is against nature), while attaining 'Shiv' roop paves the way for better accordance with the laws of nature, naturally!

2nd argument:
'Change' is also a 'law of nature' (laws of replacement & displacement) & considering the blessing of 'Buddhi' & 'Karma-swatantrya' bestowed upon us by nature, trying to attain Shiv roop is not against laws of nature!

3rd argument: (based on Hegel's dialectical methodology)
Just as everything in the nature/world is in a continuous state of evolution (in a dialectical manner & based on the nature of 'consciousness'), evolution of 'Jeev' into 'Shiv' is quite logical, scientific & acc. to laws of nature!
(I know, the Hegelian dialectics has its own limitations & hence, is a lame argument in itself!)

Btw, plz break the deadlock soon! 'm eager to quench my curiosity!!!
So, what did Satguru answer???
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Viththal Viththal....
May GOD bless all...Cheesy
mk
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 12:04:42 AM »

Namonamah,

Some reflections:

1. Laws of nature are, like antarman, not based upon what is right and what is wrong. There is no inherent value judgment.


2. The laws of nature just define the effects of actions. They are like tools in our hands. It is upto us how we interpret, adapt and combine these laws to achieve our objective.

3. We cannot go against the laws of nature, by definition it is impossible.

4. Not all laws of nature are known. Laws may have corollaries.

5. The form in which a person is born is definitely based on laws of nature. It would require exceptional knowledge and intellectual capacity to identify what form one should attain in life and to identify a plan of acton (each action invoking natural laws and give corresponding results) whose execution would transform the person to the form he/she wishes to attain.

I would look at this question, and many others, in light of the above.

Thanks and best wishes.
Milind khadilkar
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Vaibhav Nimbalkar
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Viththal Viththal...


« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 02:16:39 AM »

@ mk,
i wud like to mend ur 3rd point...

Laws of nature can not be 'amended' (or broken) though one can 'go against'(behave contrastingly) them (correspondingly gaining 'paap' in return!)

ThanQ...
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Viththal Viththal....
May GOD bless all...Cheesy
dr.nutanpol
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2008, 06:38:38 AM »

Namaskar MK jee and all,

Laws of nature are eternal because they will never change but as Vaibhav said, laws of nature can be broken or modified and this will follow the after effect as reaction. Water flows from higher level to low level by law of nature but by using pump we lift the level of water for irrigation etc. When hybrid seeds are made, we do the modification in law of nature.

Genetic engineering branch is developed to modify the laws of nature only. Space shuttle travels against the force of gravity of earth.  We may find many examples where law of nature is modified. Man uses his intellect to do this. Question is while doing this what is person?s motive and how it affects the mankind and other living creatures. Depending on this he/she has to face the wrath of nature for breaking the law of nature or the positive reactions in the form of happiness, fulfillment of desire etc.

May everybody chant VP!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 06:43:16 AM by dr.nutanpol » Report to moderator   Logged

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May God Bless all!
mk
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2008, 09:27:12 AM »

Namonamah,
Vaibhavjee, Dr. Nutanjee,
Thanks.
But I insist: Laws of nature cannot be broken.

Our (not just as individuals, but also as humanity as a whole!) knowledge of the laws is tentative, so precariously founded on emperical evidence. And often we are not cognizant of the various cases and subcases that are part of the law. Often, we are not careful enough and make a parody of the law. An example in the physical sciences comes to mind. Newton's third law (we even don't bother to add "of motion"!) is often stated simply as "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", and this statement is accepted more often than not! There are at least two points on which it is incomplete and therefore misleading. One: the fact that action and reaction act on different bodies. Two: that the action and reaction are "opposite" as vectors, that they happen along the same line but in different directions. But if this is not appreciated, we could come to the erronius conclusion that if A does "good" to B, B does "bad" to A (and there will be enough evidence to support it too!!). At different stages of learning and in different educational mileux such firm "understandings" are not uncommon, and in the absence of dialogue often remain undiscovered.
Newton's laws of motion themselves underwent a correction a hundred years ago, 2 centuries after being published.
These corrections due to Einstein are still tentative.

What we take as laws of nature are probably only vague descriptions of partial facets of ONE LAW which will probably be never understood completely.
This law is Parameshwar, and various partial facets are just individual Ishwar's, probably not even that! And the way we describe them is just like we call somebody "vivek". Just a name, for ease of use, and not really based on inherent characteristics.

So, the question arises: can we go against THE LAW of nature? No! We can only act, and in some cases we are fortunate enough to perceive results. And since we have not understood THE LAW at all, we can atmost collect evidence about it: collect it and keep it. However much we accummulate, this evidence will always be too little and too thin to draw any conclusion. It only helps us form tentative opinions about the small, insignificant facets we call laws of nature.

Can we go against these individual laws of nature? No. We can only act, and in some cases we are fortunate enough to perceive results. We can at best try to analyze what laws combined to give us the results. If we find that our actions are not getting the results as per stated laws of nature, we just have found more evidence that our understanding of the laws is ridiculously little. One more example of "Ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti".

We should appreciate that if there are laws of nature, every such law will come into play for every action performed and for every inaction, and the result is a sum-total of results of all such laws. Because of this, it makes sense to talk of ONE LAW of nature; the unfathomable, "Toohi Nirankaar".

That plants grow upwards can just mean that the law of gravity is not the only law.

I wish to differentiate between STATED LAWS and COMMANDMENTS(RULES): Laws are stated in the form "If you do this, such and such will happen. If you murder, you could be put to death" If you accept the price you can go ahead and do whatever you want. You can't break it. Against this, commandments, like the Christian Ten Commandments ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_commandments) are of the form "You MUST do this" or "YOU must NOT do this", and are based on some authority. If you respect the authority, and if you don't obey any commandment, you have broken the commandment. If you don't respect the authority (not even by force), the commandments are anyway meaningless to you. Like the "Savinay kaaydebhang"/Civil Disobedience" movement of Gandhiji.

Hope I have put my interpretations faithfully!

Thanks and regards.
Milind Khadilkar

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mk
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2008, 10:02:33 AM »

Namonamah,
I suppose my earlier post was a digression from the topic. My apologies.

Jeev, because it is burdened with its paap-punnya account is incapable of enjoying the elixir of life, which is what life is meant for. It is therefore in its own interest to convert itself into a Shiv form. Since in doing so, appropriate amounts of Punnya would have to be spent as compensation (after earning it!) it is wholly on tune with laws of nature (as they are).

Thanks and regards.
Milind Khadilkar
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subhash
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2008, 11:35:30 PM »

MK and all,

Good discussions.

Laws of nature cannot be broken. People who try to break it get punished.

Motive behind the Q was people interpret the laws of nature based on the empirical observations. Geneally we have JEEVAs everywhere and hence people may wrongly interpret it as a law of nature and hence the Q.

Although laws of nature are not judgemental - please understand that laws of nature are actually laws of CHAITANYASHAKTI or Life Force. Tendancy of life force is always making everybody happy. Look at the manifestation everywhere and it will more than prove the point. When people try to act against the laws of nature it means they are inviting wrath from this CS. If you are getting more and more happy through your actions you can conclude that these are in tune with laws of nature.

When we try becoming Shiva, we increase OUR happiness. Hence it is in line with the laws of nature. Hence becoming JEEVA is not a law of nature but it just happened that way.

God bless you, God bless all,
Subhash
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God bless you, God bless all.
omkar
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Read "Many Lifes Many Master" Brian L. Weiss


« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 11:08:28 PM »

Hello All

Nice discussion

My thought are diffrant I think we all are shiv
& we all created this world & its laws [like playground & play] [all means only one]
but like a child we all forgot that we are playing game & have to return after playing
while in play some one come to know the real thing so he is trying to remember us the fact & helping us to go home

I am sure everybody will realise the true thing one day or other


Omkar

[May all bless with akhand sadguru kripa & effortless namsmran]

]


 
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I am vary Happy & in deepest ( bottom hearth) Gratitude to god for blessing "every body be with akhand sadgurukrupa & effortless namsmaran"
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Viththal Viththal...


« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2008, 10:57:15 PM »

ThanQ Subhash-da for the very nice answer... with the needed explanation! Wink

Sorry, but i didn't get Mr. Omkar's point! Huh
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mk
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2008, 12:39:55 AM »

Namonamah,
I would not like this topic to end here.

Omkar, can you rephrase your thoughts? Thanks

Best wishes
Milind Khadilkar
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