Shilpakaar again.... how much freedom do we have?

[mk]

Namonamah,
I am aware that I am revisiting a topic that has been discussed many times over, in different contexts, in different threads on this forum.

What is the real extent of our freedom to shape our lives?

1. We do not have the choice of
      place of birth
      time of birth
      the circumstances of birth
      parents
      initial economic situation
      initial social situation
      health at birth
      general physical constitution
      mental abilities
      initial sanskaars
      initial sangat
      initial education
      ....
      ....

2. In all but exceptional cases, the factors above keep us totally constrained till at least six years of age.
3. There is little opportunity, in general, to rise above these factors till the end of schooling, or till the age of 12, whichever is later.
4. The economic and social situation, the physical and mental constitution, affect our further education, assuming we have access to such higher education at all.

If we don't have access to formal education, we either
        a. get a job on the basis of our limited abilities (more likely than not to hamper our further career)
    or b. join the family business (a decision which is taken without full realization, and often under family pressure, and hence largely limiting our choices)
    or c. get into some trade or try to enter some low skilled profession
    or d. get into what society calls goondaagardi or mawaaligiri.

Upto this point there is hardly any scope for escaping the bounds (yes, we hear stories of those who excelled in spite of these bouinds. But why do they become "stories"? Because they are a rarity. They are small enough in number to be called statistical accidents.

At this point in life (say at the age of 20-25), irrespective of what we are doing, we are in the midst of a fierce battle, during which we could take (knowingly or unknowingly) actions which could have repurcussions in the future. More than a battle with the competition, it is a battle within oneself; it involves among other things:
   a. attempt at financial or positional gain by means foul or fair.
   b. re-examination of original sanskaars, possible discarding of some and acquisition of new.
   c. changing of the sangat, as part of job function or social conditions. This is usually from a short term gain perspective.
   d. formulation of life goals and identificaion of the path to it.

These are largely independent decisions and are taken without the benefit of spiritual or moral giudance, and often without any career or professional guidance. These decisions form the new constraints in which a large part of our further life gets shackled. This becomes our new prison. We cannot, as a rule, escape this prison. We can, but only as exceptions


A large majority of us can never be reached by movements such as JV (no offence meant) within the right timeframe.

My contention is that we have
   A. very little freedom to escape our prison-at-birth.....
   B. very little opportunities or abilities to choose our next prison
   C. ... and the next one.

What we have is just some freedom within these prisons.

JV says that only 10% things are not  in our hands. Right. But aren't they the things that form our prisons? The 90% things we have control over are like trivial freedom under house arrest: yes, you can have  a bath with your favourite soap; yes, you can have chewing-gum; yes, you can sleep whebever you want; No, you cannot go out.

Am I right?

Thanks and regards
Milind Khadilkar

(edited: the word "not" was added after Meenajee pointed out a mistake)

[MEENA PATKAR]

to,
MK,
Namaskar


That's what each one of us trying to explain.The only solution  is given by Jeevan Vidya for all these problems.That's why Jeevan Vidya is different,JV is telling something New .

The above list can be repeated with adding the line......We definately can choose;
  place of birth
      time of birth
      the circumstances of birth
      parents
      initial economic situation
      initial social situation
      health at birth
      general physical constitution
      mental abilities
      initial sanskaars
      initial sangat
      initial education
      ....

  All the JV followers can confidently say that they are not worried about their  destiny and they have the ability to creat their own destiny.

quote
JV says that only 10% things are in our hands


Unquote
somewhere something is wrong in understanding.JV has said just opposite of this.JV says only 10% things are not in our hands for e.g. Natural calamities like flood,earthquake etc.But 90% of our life we can live as we wish .It is in our hands to get our wishes fullfilled, with the help of efforts & prayer (Vishwaprarthana)-Prayatna & Prarthana.



Thanks & regards
Meena
May God bless all.

[mk]

Namonamah,
Thank you Meenajee for pointing out a typing lapse on my part. The next line in my post "The 90% things we have control over..." indicates that the 10% is not in our hands. However, I am sorry for the confusion I created.

I have since edited my original post.

Regards
Milind Khadilkar

[Vaibhav Nimbalkar]

Dear MK,

Very nice & inquisitive query indeed!

I too faced the similar que. in the beginning (I'm still a beginner btw! )
But, when I got to know about the theory of Paap-Punya and the chain of Sanchit-Praarabdha-Kriyamaan-Niyati-Nashib-Sukh/Dukkh as preached by JV, then the things got sorted out easily!
I'd recommend you to read the book 'Paap-Punya Samaj-GairSamaj' and watch/listen to the VCDs of Shri Satguru named 'Sukhi Jeevanachi Gurukilli' to get the necessary clarification!

For the time being, I'd say,
on the basis of our stock of paap-punya, we get all that you've listed (so meticulously!) in life! i.e. manifestation of our paap-punya of earlier deeds/lives,etc.  That's why, the logical corollary follows that diff people witness diff conditions, circumstances, etc. in life! AND even to get JV, one needs a basic minimum amount of Punya backing him/her!

Moreover, by using the duo of 'Prayatna' & 'Prarthana' (as mentioned earlier by Meena-taai), one can change anything and everything in life!
This way, you control almost 90% of your life! (How beautifully JV does away with fatalism! Hats off to Shri Satguru! )

That's how in JVM, we are guided from
"किती वेळा जन्मा यावे, किती व्हावे फजित"
                            to
"तुका म्हणे जन्मा आल्याचे सार्थक, विठ्ठलचि एक देखिलिया"

May all be blessed by Shri Satguru in this divine journey!
Amen!

[mk]

Namonamah,
Thanks Meenajee, Vaibhavjee,

I accept the good that JV has done to you and to other naamdhaaraks. But for the moment, concentrate on a person's current life (not his/her past) and reexamine my questions/ suppositions.

What is the real extent of our freedom to shape our lives?

My contention is that we have
   A. very little freedom to escape our prison-at-birth.....
   B. very little opportunities or abilities to choose our next prison
   C. ... and the next one.

What we have is just some freedom within these prisons.

JV says that only 10% things are not  in our hands. Right. But aren't they the things that form our prisons? The 90% things we have control over are like trivial freedom under house arrest: yes, you can have  a bath with your favourite soap; yes, you can have chewing-gum; yes, you can sleep whebever you want; No, you cannot go out.
Am I right?

Thanks and regards
Milind Khadilkar

[MEENA PATKAR]

To,
MK,
NAmaskar,

I think you have been trapped into a prison of negative thinking.(Most of the JV namadharaks were in that state , before getting the knowledge of JV philosophy, including myself).

JV always tells to concentrate on PRESENT, not on past or future.
It says " Present " is a nothing but a reaction to the action of a person 's deeds in his past  and similarly whatever actions  a person does , he will receive the reactions to that in his future.
So our PRESENT is very much imporatant to creat a good future & to get escape from
the bad past.
Vaibhav has come up with a nice reply and as recommended by him , pl. go through the book "Paap -Punya".Please study the chain of "Sanchit -Prarabdha -Kriyaman-Niyati.....................".This will solve all your queries and wipe out the negative thinking about the human life.

Quote

I accept the good that JV has done to you and to other naamdhaaraks

Post-Quote

Won't you like to have that good  that JV has done to  it's followers , for yourself??

Thanking You
Meena
May God bless all

[mk]

Namonamah,
Meenajee Namaste,

Thanks.
In your reply, you mention

QUOTE
JV always tells to concentrate on PRESENT, not on past or future.
It says " Present " is a nothing but a reaction to the action of a person 's deeds in his past  and similarly whatever actions  a person does , he will receive the reactions to that in his future.

UNQUOTE

However in your post on another thread on the same day, you write (regarding my interpretation of w.r.t. Jeevan as in Tooch... Shilpakaar)
QUOTE
"jeevan here means not just the current life but also all future ones And also all past ones"
UNQUOTE

These two things look difficult (though not very difficult) to reconcile....

Thanks and Best wishes

Milind Khadilkar

[mk]

Namonamah,
Meenajee Namaste,

Won't I like to have that good  that JV has done to  it's followers , for myself??

Yes, I would. That is why I am so interested in all Naamdhaaraks' good. Because, in everybody's good lies my good. (No, here "lies" does not mean untruths!)

Best wishes
Milind Khadilkar

[MEENA PATKAR]

To,
Mk,

Namaskar

Both the statements ,in my posts ,though appear different , they are related & supporing to each other.Both the statements are correct.

It is true that JV believes that the current life is not the present life only , but also future ones & past ones.

But  if we want to make our destiny , JV says we have to concentrate on our Present Because only "Present " is the time on which we have full control over our behaviour and it's a good opportunity we have got to rub out the past ( i.e. to rub out the impressions which are already there and can become harmful anytime, if manifested in current life.)
And also , PRESent life is a great opportunity we have got to make .to creat our future.
It is our own behaviour on three levels speeach, deed & thought, become responsible what kind of life we are going to get in future.

Both statements are not contradictory , but supporting each other.

Thanking you,

meena,
may God bless all.

[subhash]

MK,

want to bring a complete different JV perspective to your question:

With practice of knowledge of JV you can be happy in ANY SITUATION IN ANY BIRTH. It does not matter who are your parents, which job and where you are, where you spent your childhood, etc. you can experience inner peace and bliss continuously !!! You have that much control.

With JV you can achieve this not only for yourself but like Satguru try to achieve it for others. You may not control others lives but with knowledge of JV you can definitely influence their lives positively. Over a period of few decades I believe the world will be a much better place to live and if JV goes in every household then it does not matter where you are born - you will get that knowledge.

Control is not the end, it is just the beginning.

We definitely have a freedom to be free from the influence of the surrounding.

God bless you, God bless all,
Subhash